ABCD Main Discussion

First topic message reminder :

You can start talking anything about ABC in this thread.
You can make your own thread in this forum too.

we will fix the bug on new version instead.. version 1.1

what we will add? there is 5 new characters... and still secret for now..

edit:
Someone.. (not me of course) upload ABC on mapgnome.. and quite many downloads there..
though us quite happy to see this.. so our map is now quite well known..
http://www.mapgnome.org/map-info/474291

hello:) I from Poland and i searched this forum and... You created nice maps!!!!!! I often play with friend on your's maps:) Your new map ABC its really cool:) thanks for this TOM!!! and I'm waiting for your next update:)


PS. sorry for my english

thanks ;)
glad you like it.. and thanks for hosting abc :)

PS. your english is not so bad. i still can understand it.

so hows the progress going, any idea when will the release 1.1 ? : o

first characters is finished.. still 4 more way to go.. haha
we quite slow for doing the map.. since we really busy..

okay.. i will give screenshot on ABC 1.1..
note: the map still long way from finish.. so this is just some spoiler for you :P
(it show the 2 new characters that will be available on 1.1 and new interfaces)

https://2img.net/h/i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu158/thomasinow/newinterfaces.jpg

damned you showed them the spoiler :O

A little bit of a critique on Shana's suicide ulti...

In my opinion, it is not really that useful compared to her other 3 skills - the AoE is not that far and characters (Nanoha, Ichigo, Grimmjow etc) has blink-type abilities could escape fairly easily. Also, it is not so much of an eye candy either (yeah~ we might use it for fun and probably that's about it).

Fuzetsu + ulti could essentially solve the issue of people getting away. But Fuzetsu itself - being a global stun - allows Shana (a high base dmg char anyway) to kill just as easily without using the ulti which kills herself (Chain kill! you just killed 3 heroes, oh btw you are dead too XD)... Yes, it deals high damage but it's nothing you can't achieve with 5 sec (the stun) + the weapons you'd using in late game + fast atk spd.

My suggestion:
- Decrease cooldown
- Add ankh to item shop (just make it expensive) otherwise the ulti remains fairly useless.
- Make a special revival timer for the ulti - i.e. shorter wait time (since you weren't killed by enemies).
- Change the spell - instead of Shana becomes incontrollable and dies after casting; make the spell to a countdown-type spell so she still die at the end but she might have 5-10 seconds of bonus armor/damage/ms etc...

How about decreases her HP -> 5% after using Ultimate?
I don't know how effective her ultimate is since i've never actually use it (the other 3 skills work perfectly for pawning)

You guys should nerf Reimu's 3rd skill. Dealing twice damages with such range is a ultimate skill for farming. Make it deals damage only once for each hit units.

Haruhi's Time Loop also isn't very effective. Delays for 8 seconds in late game is too long. How about make it instant and the loop back time is 1-2-3-4-5 ?

Louise's passive ability is way too freaky :D(i killed my team mates a few time cuz of that 15%) With such handicap should her damage be a bit more fierce ?

One last thing, rather than ["Whatever the female character name here" has just killed Him self] -> ["Whoever" has just sucided]

[Team is WON] -> [You win]
I would like to add more but i have to learn for midterm-tests so i can't recheck the errors in grammar.

@leaderofrouge

A little bit of a critique on Shana's suicide ulti...

btw.. shana ultimate is now having Chaos type damage.
and cooldown already decreased.

- Add ankh to item shop (just make it expensive) otherwise the ulti remains fairly useless.

don't it will ruin the game. (example while duel)

- Make a special revival timer for the ulti - i.e. shorter wait time (since you weren't killed by enemies).

i think no need.. since the timer already fast.
it's 1 second * level of your hero (it means the final will be 30 seconds duration)

@omegasui

You guys should nerf Reimu's 3rd skill. Dealing twice damages with such range is a ultimate skill for farming. Make it deals damage only once for each hit units.

well it's not so effective since all reimu skill is AoE damage type.
the third skill i think is not so good for farming in my opinion.. since the missile are oval.. not straight into the line.. i think 3rd skill of reimu is for hero that was trying to escape.. you can use the skill for kill it.

Haruhi's Time Loop also isn't very effective. Delays for 8 seconds in late game is too long. How about make it instant and the loop back time is 1-2-3-4-5 ?

the first level is way too useless.. haha
we will try to modify this skill..

Louise's passive ability is way too freaky :D(i killed my team mates a few time cuz of that 15%) With such handicap should her damage be a bit more fierce ?

her damage is already more fierce than other character..
she is way quite imba because of that.
and.. now her passive ability do more damage to herself.. (bonus damage)

One last thing, rather than ["Whatever the female character name here" has just killed Him self] -> ["Whoever" has just sucided]

[Team is WON] -> [You win]

Gotcha!

I would like to add more but i have to learn for midterm-tests so i can't recheck the errors in grammar.

nah don't worry.. we will fix it little by little.. even the list you gave me not all finish updated.. haha..

A little bit of a critique on Shana's suicide ulti...

btw.. shana ultimate is now having Chaos type damage.
and cooldown already decreased.

I still think something should be done, because it is still too easy to avoid the ulti by most other heroes which would just result in Shana killing herself and not many other heroes <.<

- Add ankh to item shop (just make it expensive) otherwise the ulti remains fairly useless.

don't it will ruin the game. (example while duel)

I see your point; what about an ankh ability for Shana that only activates if Shana dies due to her ulti? Or maybe change ulti so after using ulti her HP is reduced to 5-10% + maybe 1 sec stun penalty - which is as good as dead (in my opinion).

- Make a special revival timer for the ulti - i.e. shorter wait time (since you weren't killed by enemies).

i think no need.. since the timer already fast.
it's 1 second * level of your hero (it means the final will be 30 seconds duration)

Fair enough :)

@omegasui

You guys should nerf Reimu's 3rd skill. Dealing twice damages with such range is a ultimate skill for farming. Make it deals damage only once for each hit units.

well it's not so effective since all reimu skill is AoE damage type.
the third skill i think is not so good for farming in my opinion.. since the missile are oval.. not straight into the line.. i think 3rd skill of reimu is for hero that was trying to escape.. you can use the skill for kill it.

Assuming we are playing 1v1 or 2v2 where you don't have huge competition on creeps, I would agree with Omegasui actually, the skill actually has super reach! If you use it at the right place, you can wipe out creeps from 3-4 spawn points (initially maybe 2 but creeps go aggro after you attacked them and so the amulets can kill some more on the way back). So Reimu 3rd skill alone can really net you $2-3k if you are lucky.

But in 5v5, then you should be grateful if you get income at all XD

Haruhi's Time Loop also isn't very effective. Delays for 8 seconds in late game is too long. How about make it instant and the loop back time is 1-2-3-4-5 ?

the first level is way too useless.. haha
we will try to modify this skill..

I don't think Time Loop has any problem, you just need to cast the ability before hand - so you actually need some skill in knowing when/how to use it :P

Louise's passive ability is way too freaky :D(i killed my team mates a few time cuz of that 15%) With such handicap should her damage be a bit more fierce ?

her damage is already more fierce than other character..
she is way quite imba because of that.
and.. now her passive ability do more damage to herself.. (bonus damage)

Agreed with ToM, Louise has the highest base damage, super farmer regardless of whether her spells fail or not - whether the spell hits or not is the only thing players to need worry about. AIs play Louise quite well for early to mid game, and if you are not careful, you will die instantly.

I still think something should be done, because it is still too easy to avoid the ulti by most other heroes which would just result in Shana killing herself and not many other heroes <.<

that's the disadvantage and advantage being the most highest ultimate damage. if hit you can kill it easily even instant kill.. but if miss.. you're unlucky..

I see your point; what about an ankh ability for Shana that only activates if Shana dies due to her ulti? Or maybe change ulti so after using ulti her HP is reduced to 5-10% + maybe 1 sec stun penalty - which is as good as dead (in my opinion).

i think your idea is quite good.. maybe not instant kill.. but make shana hp become 10%.. fair enough..

Assuming we are playing 1v1 or 2v2 where you don't have huge competition on creeps, I would agree with Omegasui actually, the skill actually has super reach! If you use it at the right place, you can wipe out creeps from 3-4 spawn points (initially maybe 2 but creeps go aggro after you attacked them and so the amulets can kill some more on the way back). So Reimu 3rd skill alone can really net you $2-3k if you are lucky.

But in 5v5, then you should be grateful if you get income at all XD

k maybe i will increase the cooldown for 3rd skill into 30 seconds..

Actually if you use Reimu's 3rd skill near the fountain in the central of the map, you can pawn more than 5 waves of creeps... I went from lvl 1 to lvl 4 after 1 skill ZOMG!! It's super effective for farming!!!

nah don't worry.. we will fix it little by little.. even the list you gave me not all finish updated.. haha..

I'll try get this done in asap.

I see your point; what about an ankh ability for Shana that only activates if Shana dies due to her ulti? Or maybe change ulti so after using ulti her HP is reduced to 5-10% + maybe 1 sec stun penalty - which is as good as dead (in my opinion).

i think your idea is quite good.. maybe not instant kill.. but make shana hp become 10%.. fair enough..

forgive me for saying this but i see no point in it, no matter if it's killed herself or 10%hp. since if your enemy got away from the ulti (most likely green->orange health, or else you'll not even consider doing this.) all they need is to melee you to death with the large hp difference. so actually shana's ulti can be used to deny kills too o-o but i'm sure alot of people won't be doing that. since as is said, shana's 3 skills+1 after change is more than enough to take out most people...
if the situation really must be changed, then changing of shana's ulti will be better o-o since there is a "LESS" well-known ulti she used against sabrac, which burnt a whole city, though ignore this. since shana's current ulti is good enough.

Assuming we are playing 1v1 or 2v2 where you don't have huge competition on creeps, I would agree with Omegasui actually, the skill actually has super reach! If you use it at the right place, you can wipe out creeps from 3-4 spawn points (initially maybe 2 but creeps go aggro after you attacked them and so the amulets can kill some more on the way back). So Reimu 3rd skill alone can really net you $2-3k if you are lucky.

But in 5v5, then you should be grateful if you get income at all XD

k maybe i will increase the cooldown for 3rd skill into 30 seconds..

well, please don't increase cd of the 3rd skill, idk for other people but reimu's skill is already quite hard to master, throw in some more disadvantage and it'll be hard to use her, since i'll admit i lost everytime i used reimu o-o as there isn't any skill to run away when you have low hp+ no stun skill to use in combo for ulti, most people just wait for my ulti to end outside my AoE, some even time when to use skill so i would get in trouble as soon as i'm out o-o" so in contrast, i think money collection is one thing reimu is good at o-o and would "almost" be the only thing keeping her alive in cases o-o (though once again, idk if you all faced the same problem as me, i'm just bad with reimu sorry)

Dude, she's the best hard-core farmer!
Skill 3 can pawn 4~6 waves of creeps near the central fountain.(If you know how to lure, and your team mates aren't stupid enough to KS)
Skill 1 can pawn heroes trying to get close to you or even running away (if placed correctly).
Don't know about skill 2, not that effective in any point of the game, I usually spend points on Attribute rather than upgrading skill 2.
Ultimate is best used with a disabler(obviously if she has any skill to combo with her ulti, there will be rage quit) . A combo with Miku is something that you will love.
I've never lose even once when playing as Reimu(.....actually there is 1, but there was 1 freaking dude who always KS all the time, and he really did a great job KS-ing -> can't out-level -> Reimu got pawned)
So ... yeah.... increasing skill 3's cd is rly needed, but not too much :twisted:

[quote="nomanright"]

forgive me for saying this but i see no point in it, no matter if it's killed herself or 10%hp. since if your enemy got away from the ulti (most likely green->orange health, or else you'll not even consider doing this.) all they need is to melee you to death with the large hp difference. so actually shana's ulti can be used to deny kills too o-o but i'm sure alot of people won't be doing that. since as is said, shana's 3 skills+1 after change is more than enough to take out most people...

I am afraid you may not have played AOS/arena maps. So couple of points, 1) there're regenerative items for you to use (though normal no one buys it) - just because you only have 10% HP doesn't mean you are 100% going to die consider the following:

A) You survived and then she uses pot --> back to full HP --> OK, lets start again XD
B) spell cooldowns needs to be factored in as well, let's say you survived Shana's ulti during duel - 25% remaining for argument sake - but then you don't have skills to use due to cooldown and you are not in attack range whereas Shana still has Fuzetsu up her sleeve. So what happens next? You two close in, she cast the skill just before you can attack --> hits you for 5 secs --> your HP go down to 10% and she regens up to may 15-20% --> then the fight could go on or worse case scenario you loose the fight.

But out of duel, Shana's ulti is practically useless since enemies have so much time to escape then they could decide whether to come back and fight or just retreat i.e. Shana would have just died for no particular reason essentially if the ulti remains as is which I reckon is not particularly fair. But if it is a skill like Rot in dota then fair enough.

well, please don't increase cd of the 3rd skill, idk for other people but reimu's skill is already quite hard to master, throw in some more disadvantage and it'll be hard to use her, since i'll admit i lost everytime i used reimu o-o as there isn't any skill to run away when you have low hp+ no stun skill to use in combo for ulti, most people just wait for my ulti to end outside my AoE, some even time when to use skill so i would get in trouble as soon as i'm out o-o" so in contrast, i think money collection is one thing reimu is good at o-o and would "almost" be the only thing keeping her alive in cases o-o (though once again, idk if you all faced the same problem as me, i'm just bad with reimu sorry)

No offense, but players not being able to play particular characters (like learn to use their skills effectively) is not anything to do with the map itself/any other technical flaws on the authors'/map's part. Mastering how to use "difficulty" spells is part the game (your own practice). The fact that all skills uses the hotkeys (i.e. Q, W, E & for lvl-able skills; C & V default skills) already made it much easier for players to learn them - unlike 90% of other custom maps.

[quote="Leaderofrouge"]

nomanright wrote:

forgive me for saying this but i see no point in it, no matter if it's killed herself or 10%hp. since if your enemy got away from the ulti (most likely green->orange health, or else you'll not even consider doing this.) all they need is to melee you to death with the large hp difference. so actually shana's ulti can be used to deny kills too o-o but i'm sure alot of people won't be doing that. since as is said, shana's 3 skills+1 after change is more than enough to take out most people...

I am afraid you may not have played AOS/arena maps. So couple of points, 1) there're regenerative items for you to use (though normal no one buys it) - just because you only have 10% HP doesn't mean you are 100% going to die consider the following:

A) You survived and then she uses pot --> back to full HP --> OK, lets start again XD
B) spell cooldowns needs to be factored in as well, let's say you survived Shana's ulti during duel - 25% remaining for argument sake - but then you don't have skills to use due to cooldown and you are not in attack range whereas Shana still has Fuzetsu up her sleeve. So what happens next? You two close in, she cast the skill just before you can attack --> hits you for 5 secs --> your HP go down to 10% and she regens up to may 15-20% --> then the fight could go on or worse case scenario you loose the fight.

But out of duel, Shana's ulti is practically useless since enemies have so much time to escape then they could decide whether to come back and fight or just retreat i.e. Shana would have just died for no particular reason essentially if the ulti remains as is which I reckon is not particularly fair. But if it is a skill like Rot in dota then fair enough.

well, i can proudly say that i've played a fair share of AoS/Arena maps, though if i actually master them is another matter by itself. But as you've said, most of the time when playing arena maps, pots are banned by most host i played with, so i didn't take that into account. but well, here's some points that goes against what you said:

A) You survived and then she uses pot --> back to full HP --> OK, lets start again XD

then what if they also have pots? full health and full health, and try that against shiki who had used his ulti straight at start, his cd will be done already. and Lets say they don't have pots, hp difference is just a part of surviving, so lets just put you're fighting miku(stunner) or any other character(yuuji for example fuzet+swordslash+sliverfireball), i did say a shana without fuzet and 2nd skill doesn't have a high chance of surviving, more serious would be when she's flying.(note that you would had used it infront so as to weaken them down, or at least i would E->W->R)

B) spell cooldowns needs to be factored in as well, let's say you survived Shana's ulti during duel - 25% remaining for argument sake - but then you don't have skills to use due to cooldown and you are not in attack range whereas Shana still has Fuzetsu up her sleeve. So what happens next? You two close in, she cast the skill just before you can attack --> hits you for 5 secs --> your HP go down to 10% and she regens up to may 15-20% --> then the fight could go on or worse case scenario you loose the fight.

1) i don't feel like saying this but would you skill shana when she's casting tenpai? just as soon as fuzet ends i'll be running as hard as i could, not skill her to bring her down unless you tell me she's red hp.

2) well there's also a fact in it that you used tenpai without fuzet, you'll just die in vain of throwing out 90% of your hp for nothing. in which i don't see a point of doing that if you can win them just by doing fuzet and spamming QWE and C.

3) most obvious things is that there is a CD pot, in which all your cd will be reset, let's just say the one you're using tenpai on have that, most obviously is that you'll lose in a cd war, even if you also have a cd pot, you've already given them time to use it when they dodged your onslaught of tenpai -> 10%hp left for shana -> shiki's ulti(or even anyone's skill) -> dead if it's quick enough, but if it's slow yeah you may had pressed pots, but another 2-3 skills still can be cast by them, so it doesn't make a very high advantage.

another thing to note is that outside of the duel arena, shana's ulti can hit quite abit of range, and it can't be blocked by any spell no matter if it's stun, push or even another fuzet,(but i had a brs blocking my tenpai at full force with her 2nd passive skill, in which i cursed brs. but that's another matter) it'll explode on the gound below her and that's all, i did proudly say that i can hit miku/reimu(without her ulti) (both without boots) most of the time with the combo of WR (in walking form). but yeah, just standing there and dying is really annoying, i had lost quite abit due to that, but it's not shana that's weak but they took out my tower on my death. (ok i am weak, not the hero that's weak)

and most of you are ignoring the fact of shana's damage before the full force is blown, tenpai can deal 700(or is it 800?) damage per second for 3 seconds, then a full blow of 7k(or 7.5k). add that damage up with chaos damage and you'll eventually see that you can even take down a lvl 30 full eq even if you're 26(just learnt the 3rd lvl of it).

well, please don't increase cd of the 3rd skill, idk for other people but reimu's skill is already quite hard to master, throw in some more disadvantage and it'll be hard to use her, since i'll admit i lost everytime i used reimu o-o as there isn't any skill to run away when you have low hp+ no stun skill to use in combo for ulti, most people just wait for my ulti to end outside my AoE, some even time when to use skill so i would get in trouble as soon as i'm out o-o" so in contrast, i think money collection is one thing reimu is good at o-o and would "almost" be the only thing keeping her alive in cases o-o (though once again, idk if you all faced the same problem as me, i'm just bad with reimu sorry)

No offense, but players not being able to play particular characters (like learn to use their skills effectively) is not anything to do with the map itself/any other technical flaws on the authors'/map's part. Mastering how to use "difficulty" spells is part the game (your own practice). The fact that all skills uses the hotkeys (i.e. Q, W, E & for lvl-able skills; C & V default skills) already made it much easier for players to learn them - unlike 90% of other custom maps.

yeah i agree with what you said, i didn't said anything about reimu being weak or so, but just that she's already good enough a character as it is. and i do know a fun of playing games is that you get to master hard to use characters, if you take that out then yeah, it'll be a boring and easy to play game. so nothing to say.

And with some freaking LOL dash ability or using boots which increases 100 ms they can easily get the hell out of the AoE, since there's 3 second dealing damage which delays the final blow, and her moves are easy to read though...

yeah i agree with what you said, i didn't said anything about reimu being weak or so, but just that she's already good enough a character as it is. and i do know a fun of playing games is that you get to master hard to use characters, if you take that out then yeah, it'll be a boring and easy to play game. so nothing to say.

So...increasing cd makes her skill easier to use?

omegasui wrote:And with some freaking LOL dash ability or using boots which increases 100 ms they can easily get the hell out of the AoE, since there's 3 second dealing damage which delays the final blow, and her moves are easy to read though...

yeah i agree with what you said, i didn't said anything about reimu being weak or so, but just that she's already good enough a character as it is. and i do know a fun of playing games is that you get to master hard to use characters, if you take that out then yeah, it'll be a boring and easy to play game. so nothing to say.

So...increasing cd makes her skill easier to use?

mind explaining to me how it makes her easier to use? >.<" so far my thought process is decreasing cd makees it easier o-o"""

@nomanright
There'd be no way I would be convinced that any of Reimu's skills' cooldowns should be decreased - I sort of see where you are coming from but I don't think they were convincing enough -.=

Points taken regarding Shana, but to be honest I haven't played in aos/arena map that ban pots because, in hero skills-based, usually holding pots would weaken the hero(except rf pot which I purposely leftout since it defeats the purpose of the discussion) so there isn't really a point to ban it - other stuff like unit upgrades/particular combination of weapons/skills/whatever then fair enough.

Tower Rush is exactly where my argument come from; like you said most ppl would retreat (even if it not full scale back to base you still would) if an ulti is being. So with 10% HP remaining then you have the opportunity to return to base and heal.

My main point is that there is a difference between a suicidal ulti and a suicide ulti, and in all honest I am sure ppl are more satisfied with being killed by another hero/unit (no matter how) rather than killing yourself with your own skill (unless they did it deliberately).

Also, let's try not to be semantics and talk about individual heroes but the type of abilities instead... You have to agree that almost 80% of heroes have either a tele-/dash type ability that would allow heroes to escape from high-dmg skills with high casting time. In that sense, Shana's ulti would be possibly taking far too before main damage is dealt - i.e. she'd have a much higher chance of killing nobody then vice versa.

Leaderofrouge wrote:@nomanright
There'd be no way I would be convinced that any of Reimu's skills' cooldowns should be decreased - I sort of see where you are coming from but I don't think they were convincing enough -.=

well, i'm not saying i want it decreased, i only want to know how it makes it easier to use as quoted by omegasui ~_~ and if i do have anything i want, that is not to increase her cd, and make her stay the same, which i gave up after looking at your reasons.

Points taken regarding Shana, but to be honest I haven't played in aos/arena map that ban pots because, in hero skills-based, usually holding pots would weaken the hero(except rf pot which I purposely leftout since it defeats the purpose of the discussion) so there isn't really a point to ban it - other stuff like unit upgrades/particular combination of weapons/skills/whatever then fair enough.

weird though, most people i played with said that they hate pot user, and will call them n**b if they saw any o-o guess they were just owned too much or are sore losers, but yeah, i personally don't mind them using pots, since it's just a waste of money in my eyes.

Tower Rush is exactly where my argument come from; like you said most ppl would retreat (even if it not full scale back to base you still would) if an ulti is being. So with 10% HP remaining then you have the opportunity to return to base and heal.

i see your point on this but i did rather say in this case, it's more towards buying time for your allies than to return to base and heal, since 1) you can't step back and risk having them attack your towers. 2) they won't allow you to fall back as much as humanly possible.

Sorry my brain is under malfunction lately, can't think anything through...how could i've mistaken from decreasing to increasing omg need a break ...

I totally go for Reimu's skills getting increased in cd, it's freaking deadly.

Too much dashes and blinks skills, AoE for cleaving is way too much(please do reduce its AoE) , Frost Nova is not enough and Magical Amulet's AoE damage is too small considering how much you spent for them. The Sword is too imba (idk about you guys but my stun count is 2 out of 3 attacks, dunno why), while the crits of the Bow isn't enough (should be 1.75). Shiny gem should be more than 20hp/s, seeing all weps increases *00 damage (if you don't mind, something like Heart from DotA is nice) . The gloves increases too much attack speed ......
I suggest bringing in some item to negate stun or silence.

Crap, again, failed, this is not the suggestion center..... ahh damn my stupidity.

@omegasui
okay.. about your items suggest.. we will try to change it again later..

oh btw, are we getting new creep-looks in the update :P

maybe not.. since it's already fit for the terrain scheme..